# Settling Beef

- Show: [Oxide and Friends](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends)
- Published: 2023-10-17
- Length: 1h 39m
- Episode: 28
- Page: https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef
- Listen: https://share.transistor.fm/s/ed8cf641

## Summary

Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal of Oxide Computer Company, joined by Conor Hoekstra of the ADSP podcast and Oxide colleague Cliff Biffle, discuss the cultural and technical friction between the C++ and Rust communities. They analyze how C++'s strict backward compatibility creates a 'legacy tax' that stifles innovation, leading to the creation of successor languages like Carbon and C++2. The group explores the emotional resistance engineers feel when switching languages, arguing that fear of devaluing past expertise often blocks rational technical evaluation. They conclude that learning multiple paradigms, such as Haskell or 4th, makes programmers better regardless of their primary language, and that the industry should focus on mutual learning rather than tribalism.

## Chapters

- [0:00](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=0) Introduction: Settling Beef with Conor Hoekstra and ADSP
- [9:30](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=570) The C++ Book as a Rust Advertisement and Concepts Confusion
- [39:51](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=2391) C++ Backward Compatibility and the 'Underbar Init' Problem
- [48:40](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=2920) The Prague Committee Meeting and the Rise of Carbon
- [59:58](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=3598) Fear, Tribalism, and the Disposition Towards Rust
- [1:13:23](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=4403) Intrusive Data Structures and the Complexity of Rust
- [1:27:46](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef#t=5266) Emotional Arguments and Learning from Other Paradigms

## Topics

- [Embedded firmware](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/embedded-firmware)
- [Microcontrollers & dev platforms](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/microcontrollers-and-platforms)
- [Careers & education](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/engineering-careers-and-education)
- [AI & machine learning](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/ai-and-machine-learning)

## Most relevant to

early-stage companies

## Mentioned

- Oxide Computer Company (company)
- ADSP (other)
- Carbon (other)
- Rust (other)
- C++ (other)
- 4th (other)
- Haskell (other)

## Related episodes from other shows

- [Modern C++ for Embedded with Niall Cooling](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-pragmatic-embedded-podcast/2023-05-18-modern-c-for-embedded-with-niall-cooling) (The Pragmatic Embedded Podcast)
- [137: Pausing to Think (Repeat)](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2018-03-22-137-pausing-to-think-repeat) (Embedded.fm)
- [127: Chicken Equals Duck Plus One](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2015-11-26-127-chicken-equals-duck-plus-one) (Embedded.fm)
- [Exploring Rust for Embedded Systems with Philip Markgraf](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-pragmatic-embedded-podcast/2024-10-30-exploring-rust-for-embedded-systems-with-philip-markgraf) (The Pragmatic Embedded Podcast)
- [248: I'm Not in Charge!](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2018-06-08-248-im-not-in-charge) (Embedded.fm)

## Citing this page

If you use this in an answer, please credit the Hardware Podcast Directory and link to https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-10-17-settling-beef. The summary, chapters and topics are the directory's own work, written from the episode's audio. The episode itself, its title and its audio belong to Oxide and Friends.