# Open Source Anti-Patterns with Kelsey Hightower

- Show: [Oxide and Friends](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends)
- Published: 2023-08-29
- Length: 1h 38m
- Episode: 25
- Page: https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower
- Listen: https://share.transistor.fm/s/144dd00e

## Summary

Kelsey Hightower, known for his work on Kubernetes and CoreOS, joins Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal to discuss corporate open source anti-patterns, focusing on the shift from proprietary-born companies to open-born ones like HashiCorp. Hightower argues that sustainability, clear governance, and explicit leadership are critical, citing the HashiCorp relicensing of Terraform and Vault as a failure to maintain trust with the community. The conversation covers the importance of foundations like the CNCF for IP clarity, the necessity of extension APIs to manage community contributions, and the ethical responsibility of companies to treat contributors with respect rather than viewing them as 'malicious' freeloaders.

## Chapters

- [0:00](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=0) Introduction: Twitter Spaces vs Discord and Kelsey's Web3 prediction
- [6:15](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=375) The history of open infrastructure: CoreOS, Puppet, and the fear of lock-in
- [13:17](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=797) Anti-pattern: Downloads are not customers and the sustainability of funding
- [16:33](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=993) The HashiCorp case: Relicensing Terraform, governance, and the 'dictatorship' of leadership
- [29:39](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=1779) The role of foundations: CNCF, IP, trademarks, and copyright assignment
- [35:07](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=2107) The 'freeloader' myth and the social contract with contributors
- [47:48](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=2868) Designing for growth: Extension APIs, plugins, and release valves
- [56:51](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=3411) DevRel: From awareness to revenue and the difference between community and customer
- [1:06:05](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=3965) When to open source: The checklist and avoiding premature release
- [1:18:27](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=4707) Copyright assignment, trademarks, and the risk assessment of building on open source
- [1:35:19](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2023-08-29-open-source-anti-patterns-with-kelsey-hightower#t=5719) Conclusion: Remembering the human element and kindness in open source

## Topics

- [Intellectual property](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/intellectual-property)
- [Starting a product company](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/starting-a-company)
- [Leadership, teams & culture](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/leadership-and-culture)
- [Mechanical engineering](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/mechanical-engineering)
- [Validation & product-market fit](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/validation-and-product-market-fit)

## Most relevant to

early-stage companies

## Mentioned

- Kubernetes (product)
- CoreOS (company)
- HashiCorp (company)
- Terraform (product)
- Vault (product)
- CNCF (other)
- Linux Foundation (other)
- Google (company)
- Puppet Labs (company)
- Docker (product)
- Go (other)
- Swift (other)
- Python (other)
- Rust (other)
- OpenStack (product)
- Nginx (product)
- Let's Encrypt (product)
- Oxide Computer Company (company)

## Related episodes from other shows

- [Ep. 43 - Collaboration in Open Source](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/open-hardware-manufacturing-podcast/2025-08-28-ep-43-collaboration-in-open-source) (Open Hardware Manufacturing Podcast)
- [Ep. 21 - Incorporating Community Feedback](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/open-hardware-manufacturing-podcast/2024-05-30-ep-21-incorporating-community-feedback) (Open Hardware Manufacturing Podcast)
- [Ep. 19 | Open-Source Machine Learning with BeagleBoard Co-Founder Jason Kridner](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/moores-lobby/2021-03-04-ep-19-open-source-machine-learning-with-beagleboard-co-founder-jason-kridner) (Moore's Lobby)
- [Ep. 14 - Owning Your Data](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/open-hardware-manufacturing-podcast/2024-02-15-ep-14-owning-your-data) (Open Hardware Manufacturing Podcast)
- [S3 E6: Building Innovation Moats with Open Hardware with Andrew "Bunnie" Huang](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-builder-circle/2025-12-09-s3-e6-building-innovation-moats-with-open-hardware-with-andrew-bunnie-huang) (The Builder Circle)

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