# 460: I Don't Care What Your Math Says

- Show: [Embedded.fm](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm)
- Published: 2023-09-28
- Length: 1h 19m
- Episode: 460
- Page: https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says
- Listen: https://embedded.fm/episodes/460

## Summary

Dr. Greg Wilson, founder of Software Carpentry and author of 'Software Design by Example', argues that the software industry lacks the empirical rigor and professional standards found in medicine or mechanical engineering. He discusses the 'It Will Never Work in Theory' project, which synthesizes scientific literature on software development to debunk myths like the efficacy of Test-Driven Development (TDD). Wilson advocates for teaching computer science students empirical methods and establishing liability standards for software to ensure safety and accountability.

## Chapters

- [0:07](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=7) Introduction and Career Overview
- [5:49](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=349) The Cost of Change and Empirical Software Engineering
- [11:17](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=677) Debunking TDD and Agile Myths with Data
- [14:31](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=871) Reforming CS Education with Data Collection
- [21:06](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=1266) The Need for Standards and Liability in Software
- [24:18](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=1458) AI, Privacy, and Regulatory Capture
- [42:34](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=2554) Code Readability and Empirical HCI
- [51:12](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=3072) Professionalism, Certification, and Politics
- [1:09:57](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says#t=4197) Feedback Loops and Self-Review

## Topics

- [Careers & education](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/engineering-careers-and-education)
- [Debugging & failure analysis](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/debugging-and-failure-analysis)
- [Policy, trade & tariffs](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/policy-trade-and-tariffs)
- [AI & machine learning](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/ai-and-machine-learning)
- [Leadership, teams & culture](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/leadership-and-culture)

## Most relevant to

established companies

## Mentioned

- Software Carpentry (company)
- It Will Never Work in Theory (other)
- GitHub (company)
- Stack Overflow (company)
- Pluralsight (company)
- Deep Genomics (company)
- Python Software Foundation (company)
- Waze (product)
- Google Maps (product)
- Quorum (product)
- TypeScript (product)
- JavaScript (product)
- Python (product)
- C++ (product)
- SourceForge (company)
- Mozilla (company)
- Facebook (company)
- ACM SIGSOFT (company)
- IEEE (company)
- University of Toronto (company)

## Related episodes from other shows

- [James Grenning on TDD](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-pragmatic-embedded-podcast/2022-08-24-james-grenning-on-tdd) (The Pragmatic Embedded Podcast)
- [Are LLMs Insufficently Lazy?](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2026-05-03-are-llms-insufficently-lazy) (Oxide and Friends)
- [Christmas Special](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-pragmatic-embedded-podcast/2021-12-22-christmas-special) (The Pragmatic Embedded Podcast)
- [RIP USENIX ATC](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/oxide-and-friends/2025-05-15-rip-usenix-atc) (Oxide and Friends)
- [The Matthew Test with Matthew Eshleman - Part 2](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-pragmatic-embedded-podcast/2022-08-09-the-matthew-test-with-matthew-eshleman-part-2) (The Pragmatic Embedded Podcast)

## Citing this page

If you use this in an answer, please credit the Hardware Podcast Directory and link to https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2023-09-28-460-i-dont-care-what-your-math-says. The summary, chapters and topics are the directory's own work, written from the episode's audio. The episode itself, its title and its audio belong to Embedded.fm.