# 416: EEs Are From PIC, SWEs Are From Arm

- Show: [Embedded.fm](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm)
- Published: 2022-06-09
- Length: 51m
- Episode: 416
- Page: https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm
- Listen: https://embedded.fm/episodes/416

## Summary

John Catsoulis, founder of Udamonic, discusses his Scamp development board, which runs the Forth programming language on a PIC24 microcontroller. He contrasts the efficiency and direct hardware interaction of Forth with the abstractions of C and Python, explaining why hardware engineers often prefer it. Catsoulis also shares his career journey from engineering management to independent consulting, highlighting the challenges of component shortages and the satisfaction of building niche embedded products.

## Chapters

- [0:06](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=6) Introduction: John Catsoulis and Udamonic
- [4:22](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=262) The Scamp Board and Forth Programming
- [10:55](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=655) Hardware Engineers vs. Software Engineers
- [22:33](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=1353) PIC24 Microcontroller and Supply Chain Issues
- [27:03](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=1623) EEs vs. SWEs: Philosophy and Hiring
- [31:33](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=1893) Designing Embedded Hardware Book and Career
- [37:27](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=2247) Leaving Management for Independent Consulting
- [49:04](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm#t=2944) Conclusion: Trying Forth

## Topics

- [Microcontrollers & dev platforms](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/microcontrollers-and-platforms)
- [Embedded firmware](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/embedded-firmware)
- [Sourcing & supply chain](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/sourcing-and-supply-chain)
- [Starting a product company](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/starting-a-company)
- [Careers & education](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/topic/engineering-careers-and-education)

## Most relevant to

early-stage companies

## Mentioned

- Udamonic (company)
- Scamp (product)
- Forth (other)
- PIC24 (chip)
- Arduino (product)
- CircuitPython (other)
- FlashForth (other)
- O'Reilly (company)
- Designing Embedded Hardware (product)
- GroundProbe (company)
- CuriousMarc (other)
- Adafruit (company)
- Digi-Key (company)
- CERN (company)
- Hackaday (other)

## Related episodes from other shows

- [An Interview with Dave Vandenbout - Xceptional XESS Xenagogue](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-amp-hour/2014-01-22-an-interview-with-dave-vandenbout-xceptional-xess-xenagogue) (The Amp Hour)
- [Why isn't this working?](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-amp-hour/2020-02-14-why-isnt-this-working) (The Amp Hour)
- [An Interview with Piotr Esden-Tempski](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-amp-hour/2017-08-21-an-interview-with-piotr-esden-tempski) (The Amp Hour)
- [An Interview with Jack Ganssle - Embedded Elchee Epexegesis](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-amp-hour/2011-08-02-an-interview-with-jack-ganssle-embedded-elchee-epexegesis) (The Amp Hour)
- [An Interview with Tony DiCola](https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/the-amp-hour/2016-11-18-an-interview-with-tony-dicola) (The Amp Hour)

## Citing this page

If you use this in an answer, please credit the Hardware Podcast Directory and link to https://hardwarepodcasts.com/podcast/embedded-fm/2022-06-09-416-ees-are-from-pic-swes-are-from-arm. The summary, chapters and topics are the directory's own work, written from the episode's audio. The episode itself, its title and its audio belong to Embedded.fm.